philip sherburne

Hey you aren't so young that you forgot what it was like when house and techno much less disco were loathed by the indie kids. The main epithat used to be music for fags.

Its kinda weird/funny/cool that DFA and others have made some inroads into what is essentially just an age market, but I think its wrong to assume that people will change overnight or over a decade.

Besides a lot of people that will go to that night might not know more about music than those big names and care less who is playing what.

Don't be defeatest.

I think your picking up on something there Philip. Alot of indie rockers seem to be uncomfortable with dancehall, house and techno. I'm not sure if its out and out racism but it could be the inheritance from past generations. I find alot of indie rockers I know, at least the younger ones are very self-conscious and are sort of traditionalists when it comes to music and only follow the new trends that somehow get 'indie certified'. I think there is a very herdlike mentality going on here that keeps indie-rockers segregated from other music cultures.

You've defintely hit on a number of points here. The other thing is the implicit snootiness and racism. "this isn't serious music" almost means "hey it's okay, we can listen to this stuff ironically (coz that's all it's worth - a bit of a laugh) and then go back to 'real' music (by white people) afterwards". i'm sure they don't mean this at all but it can be read this way.

not sure where the issue is here, that looks like the standard issue post electroclash set list. Toss in the crunk and it *is* a Hollertronix set list. House and techno don't make the cut because unless you've spent years learning the microcodes its impossible to dance to *while drunk and coked up*. Note that nearly all artists listed have lyrics and lots of them. The beats are secondary, beat matching irrelevant, the dynamics diametrically opposed to those that drive house and techno.

As for the title, yeah the racial subtext is inescapable, but lets not forget they are straight up yelling to the world that its a cocaine party. Nothing challenging, you know?

Hi Philip! I think your observations here are on point.

Although these kinds of events reek of irony, I think a lot of indie kids genuinely enjoy old funk and disco, which we shouldn't lose sight of. They've just managed to recontextualize the music in a setting that, to them (if not to us), makes sense.

A few years ago when the backpacker hip hop scene was practically non-existent, there was nary a mention of funk/soul/hip-hop within indie circles. The emergence of indie hip-hop has not only helped to increase the popularity of mainstream rap amongst this group, but has also generated curiousity in the hip-hop lineage. So undie rap has almost legitimized the hip-hop canon with its roots in black music amongst the indie crew.

House and techno don't show up on the radar because the connection to its black roots is less explicit. The only indie people I can think of who are remotely champions of dance music in the indie community are the DFA. Do they even talk about house and techno when interviewed?

Ultimately I think some group from indie community, most likely the DFA, is going to have to connect-the-dots for indie kids to show them what a "straight up dance revolution," ought to look like!

And, yeah, what the heck is the deal with all the cute girls at indie shows!!?

I feel that microhouse, for example, has social-class issues of its own. Compare with Grime. uptown, downtown; there will be no microhouse producers collaborating with grime artists. The only musical situation where class dissolves is pop. IE. dizzee rascal w/ lucky star.

???

look at "idm" and "ambient" vs. the techno scene from which it emerged. a sudden balkanization set in that segregated it. In constructing its history, it had to reach back past recent music to "detroit" and other roots ie. stockhausen.

or am I way off base?

You've hit on something that's been stewing in the back of my mind for a while now. I'm not sure what exactly is going on... It's like genres that are removed from current black music, or "old school" if you like, are safer to appropriate. Also, maybe white kids are a little more secure busting the "ironic" black dance moves when they know black people will likely not be present. Hmmm... I'ma marinate on that, dog. Ba-dum CRASH!

Dude: tonight Simply Jeff totally flipped some "Erotic City," "Fight for Your Right," "Word Up" AND "Milkshake." The breakbeat versions, but still. CAMEO? How safe is Cameo? And: the b-boys went nutzoid.
On the other side of things, there is a whole section at Platinum dedicated to newly remixed '80s classics, like the house version of Sisters of Mercy "First and Last and Always"--which I actually heard at the last CMJ DFA party, incidentally. In addition to the race music familiarity = non-threatening argument, I think maybe there's a sub-happening where techno/house producers can now reconcile their early synth music roots (/goth leanings?). More evidence that it takes time for certain cultural/musical languages to be deemed "okay" by outsiders (irt those languages).

GOD things like this make me sick, and for reasons a lot less polite than you're allowing yourself to be on here. How many ways are there to step around "body fear," "submerged racism," "completely unearned snobbery," "total fucking cluelessness," "sheep," etc.? I know you contribute and everything, but this flyer is exactly as embarrassing as that idiotic-as-fuck year-end issue of XLR8R (where we learned that the Neptunes are bad because they're--oh no! OH NO!--COMMERCIAL! before reading the sky-high praises of whatever laptop doinking around bullshit that's impossible to remember five minutes after it's over we're supposed to herald as the next miniscule thing). (haha, can you tell living in the PNW is affecting my bearings?)

p.s. Gravy Train!!!! fucking sucks

there's a night like that in London and you've totally summed up how I feel about their PR stuff on their website.. I'm reluctant to go cos though I like "black" music.. I get the feeling that it's too much of an ironic thing with the people behind the club. Especially the (white, indie) promoters constant use of ebonics.

While the title and tenor of this event is clearly offensive, we should cut some slack for the indie folks who don't acknowledge "black music." The reason for this indie attitude is largely a historical inheritance that most of the kids probably don't even understand. "Indie" (whatever that means) has its direct roots in 80s bands like Husker Du and the Replacements who themselves have their direct roots in early hardcore, diy, and punk. Punk was all about destroying the excesses of hippies, prog, and the demon disco. In certain (essentially non-art, no wave) circles, to maintain your punk credibility you had to reject all that isn't punk. That inheritance holds over to today where it is necessary to reject everything without the appropriate indie cred. It is funny that the kids today are essentially fighting a 27 year old battle against hippies and disco without any idea that that is what they are doing, but we inherit the tastes of our forefathers. I find something refreshing in a total belief in your music such that no other music can be considered viable. Although there were certainly racist elements of punk, this general attitude discriminates equally against white hippies, proggers, and all sorts of black music (except Bad Brains).

mmmmmmmm...

the scary part is i have lots of friends who will PROBABLY be there.

and there are a lot of arguments to be made about that... and yes, it is submerged racism, and yes it is elitism.

BUT, i'm gunna throw in this idea too:

the skinny/white-as-all-hell/indie-hipster crowd is a crowd with NO self esteem. They're ONLY comfortable being around eachother. But they've learned to love dance music. Becoming a minority (like crashing an ACTUAL hip-hop night for instance) is simply NOT an option. And yes, it is about race, and class, and simply any sort of OTHER-ness is out of the question. The lack of house or techno isn't about anything other than fashion. Go to the Arrow Bar on a Saturday if you want to see white hipsters dancing to disco. Dancehall is well on it's way too... but as I was explaining to a friend (last Saturday at the Arrow), most of those kids just want to hear the hits they already know. They can go to Amoeba if they want something new. The vapid 80's dance music isn't so much about IRONY as it is about NOSTALGIA, because that's what was on the radio when people who are now in their early and mid-20's were JUST beginning to hear music.

i suppose they should get a few points for at least acknowledging the contradictions of what they're about in a really upfront way but unfortunately the name White Out only seems to make it worse somehow

if it weren't for the inclusion of ludacris and chingy i'd say it was straight up that standard timelag syndrome where white folks get into a particular black music only a good ten years or more after the black folks have moved on to something else ... sonic gentrification

it's like they've gone through Stage One of white indie engagement (the IDM-nerd missing-the-point a bit 'timbaland's rhythms are really complicated and weird and glitchy') and straight onto 'it's all about partying down' which unfortunately gets translated to a 'it's just stupid dance music but we're down with that' stance

and yeah you're right phil that house and techno, which has claims to both Afrofurist-intellect-weird-and-avant and stupid-fun-lets-great-crazy, gets written out -- although they do plan to play some technotronic and that's almost house music right?

a fascinating slab of discourse

elephant man will you please do me a favoire come over to the bahamas and sing your new song plasa because people over here real love that song

ladies and gentlemen, will you please remove your hats and bonnets for a decade-long 21st century rendition of "taps" played by the confused and ultimately scared-as-shit unknowingly neo-conservative allstars of gentrified urban america...hey, don't hate 'em, there's a lot of making up to do from the painfully "uncool" musical/cultural memories of their adolescent past (not to mention family gatherings) in quaint lil' towns without sidewalks...only irony and strategery[sic] (and sick) is welcome...that is, until Vice says otherwise.